Played a full summoner from scratch, here are my thoughts.

As mentioned in the title, I decided to play a full summoner from level 1 until the end of the campaign, and then through expeditions.

At no point did I switch out of summoner. I did transfer the skills from another character, which could have been achieved by resetting the game and purchasing them at the start instead. I did not level any skills using currency from other characters, I did not duplicate any skills, and I did not use the 5th skill slot.

Seeing there's very little summoner scaling available, I rushed the minion damage reduction nodes on the Gate of Fates (Sacrifice of Flesh and the minors behind it). With those allocated my minions very rarely died.

So, let me stop wasting your time and go through my thoughts.

Must have QoL changes:

  • Minions should NOT bodyblock you. - It is not as bad with the minions running ahead, but sometimes they stand still when fighting. Getting blocked by your own minions feels absolutely garbage.

  • There needs to be a move command for minions. - Moving minions out of AoEs is impossible at the moment. Thankfully they are very tanky after Sacrifice of Flesh. That said, ranged minions feel terrible when you run into the barrier mobs from act 3 and they just shoot into the barriers over and over again. This feels even worse if you focus on ranged minions for damage (such as a Hunting Swarm duplicate).

  • Minions need to attack structure enemies. - Spawners such as Lambach tentacles seem to be completely ignored by minions for some reason. This means that when you want to kill these enemies you are forced to spam focus fire on CD until they die. This also goes for the respawning enemies at the end of act 1 whose names escape me.

Other good QoL changes:

  • Better focus fire mechanics. - The active effects from the minion skills allow you to give brief directions at the moment, Although not a must, it would be very nice to have minions continue targeting the moused over enemy, facilitating killing danger/problem enemies first.

  • Hunting Swarm's pierce modifier could come earlier. - This is minor, but minions feel pretty terrible for clear compared to other options. When you run into a few spawner enemies early you are forced to either skip or spend quite a lot of time shooting through their hordes. Once you get pierce this gets greatly alleviated, and having that modifier available from level 5 instead of 8 would be pretty nice for early minion leveling.

  • There should be a middle ground in minion aggressiveness. - With the new aggro minion AI it is incredibly difficult to buff your minions with AoE support skills unless they are standing still to hit an enemy.

  • Minion damage/health visibility. - There is no option currently to enable minion health bars or minion damage. Throughout my playthrough I just guessed when my minions were low and placed Bulwark of Dawn on their feet. Similarly, it is tough to see if things are affecting your minions' damage when you cannot see their numbers.

  • Increased area for support skills. - Skills like Sovereign Shout and Duskshroud have very interesting effects attached to them, but are incredibly painful to keep up on all your minions. This could be easily achieved with modifiers without affecting other skills.

  • Sovereign Shout needs a better animation. - Speaking of Sovereign Shout, this skill feels terrible to use due to the massive animation that makes you stand still. It would be nice to either allow you to cast whilst moving or shortening the animation.

Bugs/Unidentified problems:

  • Summons lose interest in enemies at times. - At times it seems like a few of the minions will simply get tired of fighting and will just stand still/walk around. This will usually fix itself with either time or moving far enough that these minions teleport to you. Sometimes a fresh enemy will also make them become aggressive once again.

  • Enemy placement and melee minions. - Whilst there are times when the Livor Mortis golem and all of the Feeding Swarm fledgelings seem to stack on eachother, there are other times where it seems like they cannot get to the enemy. This may or may not be the same issue stated above.

Some suggested things to look into balance-wise:

  • Improving minion AoE clear. - Cheaper/more available modifiers such as Hungering Swarm's pierce or exploding arrows (Rotten Roots) would be very welcome for other minions.

  • Adding better ways to scale minions on Gate of Fates. - Allowing minions to benefit from things like Which Time Cannot Heal, extra projectiles from Archion's Teachings, or attack bounce from Wintry Hail are all brief examples of things that could be interesting to add to your minions. Additionally, having some actual working summon damage available on the tree would be nice.

  • Providing working gear modifiers for summon scaling. - Having summon damage, health, and especially movement speed available on gear would actually be huge, not to mention things like increased number of summons (assuming it is possible to isolate it to a specific skill), ailment chance, and attack/cast speed.

  • More build diversity through modifiers. - Allowing modifiers that increase ailment chance from minions (currently only available on Livor Mortis and Parasite), more damage conversion options, AoE slams for melee minions similar to exploding arrows (Rotten Roots), or life based explosions for massive tanks like Livor Mortis (similar to the Feeding Swarm's Cadaverine, which felt very underwhelming when I tested it) would make it so there are many interesting ways to build summons.

I have no idea how well this will even hold up on anything past adept, but my guess is it will be a slogfest. Currently it is very easy to get a summoner incredibly tanky, but it feels like there are very few ways to improve their damage. The only way I see to have this clear higher expeditions is by cheesing Mark of Impurity enemy explosions and/or Anomaly globe explosions, and at that point it may as well not be a summoner anymore.

These are the main things that I can think of from the gameplay I have gotten so far.

I am happy to see game bugs being fixed and an attempt at balancing builds and diversifying what is viable.
Your game has a lot of potential, and could easily become a major name in the arpg market.
Please keep up the good work!

Edit:

I decided to add one more QoL change that I think should be taken into consideration and is not specific to summoners.

  • Potions MUST be able to be used whilst doing other actions. - Not being able to use potions whilst attacking or using skills feels extremely clunky and unintuitive. Whether this was intended or not, it makes the game feel unresponsive, and could easily be mistaken as lag or bad servers if a new player were in online mode.

Replies: 7

Created: 4 years, 2 months ago

Category: Feedback & Suggestions

There a lots of things I don't fully understand about summons right now.

Do the inflict ailments? If not, what's the use of the modifier that turns then into toxic or anything else? If they do, what is their chance to inflict ailments? Is it the same as yours (your wisdom would be useful)? Or a fixed %? Is the ailment stack shared with your own (in that case your ailment damage% would be useful) or a separate stack? Is the max ailment stacks

If you choose passive nodes that increase DoT damage but reduces non DoT damage, does it apply to summons as well (reducing their damage)?

For all the skill modifiers that increase the health, damage, speed, ... by how much? Is it 10% damage? 50%? It's not displayed in the modifier tooltip, and it changes nothing in the skill description as well. Oh and by the way, what is the actual minion damage? We can't even see the numbers when they hit to try to guess the effect of a modifier.

If anyone have any clue, I would appreciate. And please devs, add more information about how they actually work!

(Edited 4 years, 2 months ago)

Created: 4 years, 2 months ago

I think it's safe to say at this point that the Devs have no idea what's going on. +elemental damage modifier doesn't show up on gear anymore... I mean this game has been in development for 5 years..SURELY in that amount of time they played their own game and found out how awful the summon AI is...right....Right?

Created: 4 years, 2 months ago

I think it's safe to say at this point that the Devs have no idea what's going on. +elemental damage modifier doesn't show up on gear anymore... I mean this game has been in development for 5 years..SURELY in that amount of time they played their own game and found out how awful the summon AI is...right....Right?

Martimus Prime Original Comment

I think none of them ever tried out to play lv 1-80 by himself. With any skills

Created: 4 years, 2 months ago

I would like to see Avg Dmg in the minion skill tooltip, so I can tell what effects my gear/passive choices are actually having.

Created: 4 years, 2 months ago

There a lots of things I don't fully understand about summons right now.

Do the inflict ailments? If not, what's the use of the modifier that turns then into toxic or anything else? If they do, what is their chance to inflict ailments? Is it the same as yours (your wisdom would be useful)? Or a fixed %? Is the ailment stack shared with your own (in that case your ailment damage% would be useful) or a separate stack? Is the max ailment stacks

If you choose passive nodes that increase DoT damage but reduces non DoT damage, does it apply to summons as well (reducing their damage)?

For all the skill modifiers that increase the health, damage, speed, ... by how much? Is it 10% damage? 50%? It's not displayed in the modifier tooltip, and it changes nothing in the skill description as well. Oh and by the way, what is the actual minion damage? We can't even see the numbers when they hit to try to guess the effect of a modifier.

If anyone have any clue, I would appreciate. And please devs, add more information about how they actually work!

Styks Original Comment

I have not done extensive testing on this, but from what I can tell minions do have a chance to inflict ailments when you convert their damage.

It does seem to be incredibly unlikely though (maybe <5%?), but I feel like I have seen enemies being cursed by my minions previously. In addition to that I do not know how their maximum ailment stacks are calculated, and we have no ways of increasing chance apart from the skills mentioned in the first post.

As far as I can tell, none of the Gate of Fates passive currently apply to minions. I can't even tell if the summon damage ones apply. Last I heard someone talk about it not even those or the unique shoulder pads seem to work.

The skill modifiers for damage seem to work as far as I have been able to tell, but I have not done very extensive testing on this. The ones for health I have no idea, and some don't even change the tooltips, such as the ones for Feeding Swarm.

Created: 4 years, 1 month ago

I would like to see Avg Dmg in the minion skill tooltip, so I can tell what effects my gear/passive choices are actually having.

DirePenguin Original Comment

As far as I can tell from my gameplay and from the little I have seen being spoken:

None of your gear or passives has any effect on minions at the moment.

Created: 4 years, 1 month ago

There a lots of things I don't fully understand about summons right now.

Do the inflict ailments? If not, what's the use of the modifier that turns then into toxic or anything else? If they do, what is their chance to inflict ailments? Is it the same as yours (your wisdom would be useful)? Or a fixed %? Is the ailment stack shared with your own (in that case your ailment damage% would be useful) or a separate stack? Is the max ailment stacks

If you choose passive nodes that increase DoT damage but reduces non DoT damage, does it apply to summons as well (reducing their damage)?

For all the skill modifiers that increase the health, damage, speed, ... by how much? Is it 10% damage? 50%? It's not displayed in the modifier tooltip, and it changes nothing in the skill description as well. Oh and by the way, what is the actual minion damage? We can't even see the numbers when they hit to try to guess the effect of a modifier.

If anyone have any clue, I would appreciate. And please devs, add more information about how they actually work!

Styks Original Comment

So, I decided to open up Wolcen and OBS and briefly test this since it would not take that long to get a very rough idea.

I ran around a little bit with all my shadow damage archers out and watched out for the cursed symbol over the enemies. Surprisingly, it showed up more than I expected, still not much. Most enemies died without ever getting cursed, and the ones who did, ended up dying soon after.

I then took a single skull monster (specialist I think?) unsummoned all my fledgelings, and resummoned a single one without any damage modifier. I then got rid of that fledgeling and resummoned another one, this time with the Chestsplitter damage modifier. Throughout the whole process I moused over the monster so I could see its health.

I then looked at the recording and paused after every hit, calculated how much damage that single hit had done 12 times for each fledgeling.

Given this was a rather small test, the averages show a ~20% damage increase with that modifier.

I have absolutely no intention on testing any other modifiers or the passives from the Gate of Fates for the time being. I don't have a way to edit my characters and it seems like too much work to bother otherwise.

Created: 4 years, 1 month ago

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